1 00:00:00,700 --> 00:00:04,920 You might credit some modern technology to NASA, but have you ever wondered how that 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,900 technology got from use in space exploration to you. 3 00:00:08,900 --> 00:00:12,879 And do you think you could you go an entire day without using NASA technology? 4 00:00:12,879 --> 00:00:15,410 Next, on the Rocket Ranch. 5 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:22,120 These are spacecraft that can keep on going forever and ever in space, and they will open 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:28,120 up the resources of the solar system to humanity so we don’t have just one planet any more. 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:35,780 EGS Program Chief Engineer, verify no constraints to launch. 8 00:00:35,780 --> 00:00:38,810 EGS Chief Engineer team has no constraints. 9 00:00:38,810 --> 00:00:39,810 I copy that. 10 00:00:39,810 --> 00:00:40,810 You are clear to launch. 11 00:00:40,810 --> 00:00:43,360 Five, four, three, two, one, and lift-off. 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,300 All clear. 13 00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:58,080 Now passing through max q, maximum dynamic pressure. 14 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,500 Welcome to space. 15 00:01:02,500 --> 00:01:07,789 NASA has a reputation for creating history changing technology, and much of that technology 16 00:01:07,789 --> 00:01:10,649 is available to you right now. 17 00:01:10,649 --> 00:01:14,829 One of our secrets to success is that we aren’t developing all of this by ourselves. 18 00:01:14,829 --> 00:01:19,109 We’re leveraging industry and students to make innovative leaps. 19 00:01:19,109 --> 00:01:23,740 This is done primarily through our small business innovative research and small business technology 20 00:01:23,740 --> 00:01:26,649 transfer research programs. 21 00:01:26,649 --> 00:01:30,819 But before we get going, we want to make sure you know we’d love to hear your questions. 22 00:01:30,819 --> 00:01:34,630 We’ll tackle one each show and you might even inspire a whole episode. 23 00:01:34,630 --> 00:01:39,479 Tweet us using hashtag rocketranch. 24 00:01:39,479 --> 00:01:43,659 Today we’re going to talk with Dr Phil Metzger, who works for the University of Central Florida 25 00:01:43,659 --> 00:01:48,049 in partnership with NASA, about his World Is Not Enough robotic spacecraft. 26 00:01:48,049 --> 00:01:53,439 But first, we caught up with Mike Vinje, the Small Business Technology Manager with NASA’s 27 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:58,499 Kennedy Space Center who helped us understand how the foundation of our collaborative programs 28 00:01:58,499 --> 00:01:59,499 work. 29 00:01:59,499 --> 00:02:00,499 All right. 30 00:02:00,499 --> 00:02:02,789 I am in the booth now with Mike Vinje. 31 00:02:02,789 --> 00:02:04,789 Mike, thanks for being here today. 32 00:02:04,789 --> 00:02:05,789 Happy to be here. 33 00:02:05,789 --> 00:02:12,100 Joshua Santora: So, I want to start with this -- this very broad question of, could I go 34 00:02:12,100 --> 00:02:16,410 a day without using NASA technology in America? 35 00:02:16,410 --> 00:02:18,310 I don't -- I don't think you could. 36 00:02:18,310 --> 00:02:20,849 I really don't. 37 00:02:20,849 --> 00:02:25,220 If you really make a strong effort to be kind of backpacking out in the woods, I think, 38 00:02:25,220 --> 00:02:26,760 yeah, you could maybe get there. 39 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,730 But even then you'd probably be surprised at the stuff that's inside your backpack, 40 00:02:29,730 --> 00:02:33,849 or even the liner inside your jacket has probably got a lot to do with some of the materials 41 00:02:33,849 --> 00:02:34,849 work that we've done. 42 00:02:34,849 --> 00:02:38,540 A lot of people are familiar with the emergency blankets that you'll see people using -- the 43 00:02:38,540 --> 00:02:43,370 Red Cross, for example, or ambulances will have the aluminum-foil Mylar blankets. 44 00:02:43,370 --> 00:02:48,150 If you think back to the Apollo program, that's actually the material that we put around the 45 00:02:48,150 --> 00:02:53,430 outside of the legs of the lunar lander to make sure that the temperature variations 46 00:02:53,430 --> 00:02:55,760 weren't something that would cause problems with the structure underneath. 47 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:01,379 So we were literally developing this material to wrap it around the outside parts of our 48 00:03:01,379 --> 00:03:06,159 spacecraft, and that's the very same material you see folded up in the little Mylar blanket 49 00:03:06,159 --> 00:03:07,799 that people use for Red Cross. 50 00:03:07,799 --> 00:03:14,620 How did it go from a lunar lander or some other NASA application to the department store 51 00:03:14,620 --> 00:03:18,200 or to your local convenience store? 52 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:24,319 I think, a lot of times, what is unique about NASA technology development is, you're bringing 53 00:03:24,319 --> 00:03:29,510 together a diverse group of people who are looking at a problem in a fresh way. 54 00:03:29,510 --> 00:03:33,430 And it's that group of people, who come a lot of times from different industries -- As 55 00:03:33,430 --> 00:03:39,989 an example, the SBIR Program -- Small Business Innovation Research Program -- we put out 56 00:03:39,989 --> 00:03:46,230 a solicitation that has about 90 to 100 different research problems that NASA has, and that's 57 00:03:46,230 --> 00:03:51,120 open for everybody across the country to answer if they're a small company. 58 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,910 Now, what we get is a very interesting variety of responses from small businesses that are 59 00:03:55,910 --> 00:03:59,130 in industries that we might not have thought of originally to even talk to. 60 00:03:59,130 --> 00:04:03,389 But yet, the problems we describe in that type of solicitation ends up being similar 61 00:04:03,389 --> 00:04:07,000 to something that they've seen in their situation, and they know how to adapt it. 62 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,349 And many times, there's that sort of incremental progress that can really make a big difference 63 00:04:11,349 --> 00:04:12,849 for technology development. 64 00:04:12,849 --> 00:04:15,720 For those who have been following the progress that we've had on the International Space 65 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,890 Station, a few years ago, we had a really remarkable moment where, for the first time, 66 00:04:20,890 --> 00:04:25,560 humans grew their own crop in space, and were able to eat that crop. 67 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:30,660 On August 10, astronauts on the International Space Station sampled their first space-grown 68 00:04:30,660 --> 00:04:34,100 salad and pronounced it, “good”. 69 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:38,810 They were treated to freshly-harvested red romaine lettuce grown in the VEGGIE plant 70 00:04:38,810 --> 00:04:43,890 growth chamber – a special structure designed to make gardens flourish in weightlessness. 71 00:04:43,890 --> 00:04:45,300 Which is awesome. 72 00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:46,300 Yeah. 73 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:47,480 That had never happened before. 74 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:52,970 And one of the reasons that was possible several years ago was because the SBIR Program helped 75 00:04:52,970 --> 00:04:57,460 fund the research for the development of something called the Veggie, which was the growth chamber 76 00:04:57,460 --> 00:04:59,400 that the actual growth took place inside of. 77 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,480 And that's something that took multiple years and a lot of work with different folks. 78 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,420 But it was something that, actually, we relied on the innovation coming out of small businesses 79 00:05:07,420 --> 00:05:09,370 in order to accomplish. 80 00:05:09,370 --> 00:05:13,940 The systems that you would normally use to water a crop don't work as you would expect. 81 00:05:13,940 --> 00:05:16,630 Because, if you think about it, when you're watering a crop, that's something that normally 82 00:05:16,630 --> 00:05:20,570 happens with Earth gravity, and you can rely on the gravity to drag the water down to the 83 00:05:20,570 --> 00:05:23,310 roots, who need the moisture. 84 00:05:23,310 --> 00:05:27,900 In a weightless environment there is no up and down so roots grow in all directions. 85 00:05:27,900 --> 00:05:33,180 Water and substrate, the materials used to anchor these plants and allow for root growth 86 00:05:33,180 --> 00:05:35,450 tend to float away. 87 00:05:35,450 --> 00:05:40,330 With VEGGIE, these problems are solved by using plant pillows, bags of substrate with 88 00:05:40,330 --> 00:05:43,580 space dirt and controlled-released fertilizer. 89 00:05:43,580 --> 00:05:48,110 Wicks are implanted in the bags to draw water into the substrate and provide a place to 90 00:05:48,110 --> 00:05:53,390 glue the seeds, which are orientated so roots will grow down into the substrate and shoots 91 00:05:53,390 --> 00:05:55,930 that emerge will push out of the bag. 92 00:05:55,930 --> 00:06:00,780 And although we did have some prototype systems, we found out quickly that we were, unfortunately, 93 00:06:00,780 --> 00:06:05,160 having to task -- ask the astronauts to help by manually watering some of the roots and 94 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,160 stuff. 95 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,510 And that ended up creating a need that we realized to have some sort of watering system 96 00:06:10,510 --> 00:06:12,530 that didn't rely on gravity. 97 00:06:12,530 --> 00:06:15,520 Hi, Scott Kelly onboard the International Space Station. 98 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:23,720 I wanna go and check on my flowers I am growing here in the Columbus module. 99 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,770 Kind of nice to have some flowers up here. 100 00:06:26,770 --> 00:06:32,690 You don’t see much that is alive and growing besides the six of us here. 101 00:06:32,690 --> 00:06:41,210 So, there was an example of the type of technology call that went out, and so people across other 102 00:06:41,210 --> 00:06:45,710 agricultural industries, who had never thought that they were gonna have a need to talk or 103 00:06:45,710 --> 00:06:51,820 an opportunity to talk to NASA suddenly found themselves to be right in the area of discussion. 104 00:06:51,820 --> 00:06:56,220 One interesting area in the past few years has been the fields of autonomy, as an example. 105 00:06:56,220 --> 00:06:57,220 Sure. 106 00:06:57,220 --> 00:07:03,130 We have found, on the NASA side of autonomy, we have an interest in making sure that we 107 00:07:03,130 --> 00:07:08,900 have reliable systems that are rugged and can work unattended on other planets for some 108 00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:10,080 period of time. 109 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,970 And that's the type of autonomy that we would have, is some sort of smart system that would 110 00:07:14,970 --> 00:07:18,250 be able to detect when there's maintenance problems, or even perform its own maintenance 111 00:07:18,250 --> 00:07:22,750 and that sort of thing, and make it to where it's ready for human occupation at a later 112 00:07:22,750 --> 00:07:24,570 date or that sort of task. 113 00:07:24,570 --> 00:07:26,800 So, you mentioned autonomy being a good example. 114 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,050 So, essentially, we know that, as we return to the moon, we're looking to do that with 115 00:07:31,050 --> 00:07:35,460 commercial companies, and so we're gonna try and do a little up-front kick-starting of 116 00:07:35,460 --> 00:07:41,090 autonomy in commercial world, hoping that they will evolve further than the initial 117 00:07:41,090 --> 00:07:46,870 product so that we can glean from them and use them to help us get there effectively 118 00:07:46,870 --> 00:07:47,900 and efficiently. 119 00:07:47,900 --> 00:07:51,840 It's even more terrestrial than that, although the lunar example was good. 120 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:52,840 Yeah, just an example. 121 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:58,430 But let's take, for example, when we're talking about autonomy as it has to deal with a processing 122 00:07:58,430 --> 00:07:59,870 of materials. 123 00:07:59,870 --> 00:08:04,990 The same type of autonomy that would be advantageous to NASA in terms of a robot driving a scoop 124 00:08:04,990 --> 00:08:10,460 of lunar dirt by itself, that same type of autonomy is also of use for a mining company 125 00:08:10,460 --> 00:08:15,310 that has an autonomous dump truck down in a tunnel 200 feet below the ground. 126 00:08:15,310 --> 00:08:21,110 I did want to ask -- so, we heard about this project that we're gonna find more out about, 127 00:08:21,110 --> 00:08:23,520 WINE -- World Is Not Enough. 128 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:30,810 So can you kind of talk me through, what's been the process for the WINE project as they've 129 00:08:30,810 --> 00:08:34,840 kind of worked through the SBIR process? 130 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:35,840 Sure. 131 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:44,040 This particular company, they were able to essentially produce a robotic rover -- a robotic 132 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:51,270 free-flyer that can utilize the resources on the planetary bodies that it lands upon 133 00:08:51,270 --> 00:08:53,340 in order to get to the next location. 134 00:08:53,340 --> 00:08:56,760 That's about the best way to describe it. 135 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:57,890 Sounds cool, right? 136 00:08:57,890 --> 00:09:00,410 Now here’s Dr. Phil Metzger to talk more about it. 137 00:09:00,410 --> 00:09:01,410 All right. 138 00:09:01,410 --> 00:09:03,810 I am here in the booth with Dr. Phil Metzger. 139 00:09:03,810 --> 00:09:05,700 Dr. Metzger, thanks for being here. 140 00:09:05,700 --> 00:09:06,700 Hello, Josh. 141 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:07,700 I'm glad to be here. 142 00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:08,700 Thanks. 143 00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:15,120 Hey, so, we are talking today about getting technology from NASA into the hands of the 144 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:16,120 general public. 145 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,800 And we do that, obviously, through different means. 146 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:24,630 But I've been told you're working on a project called WINE, which is an acronym -- the World 147 00:09:24,630 --> 00:09:25,630 Is Not Enough. 148 00:09:25,630 --> 00:09:29,029 So I feel like we need to [Sings] Ba-da, ba-dum Ba-dum-um 149 00:09:29,029 --> 00:09:30,029 [ Laughs ] 150 00:09:30,029 --> 00:09:31,029 So, what is WINE? 151 00:09:31,029 --> 00:09:33,090 Where did we get the name World Is Not Enough? 152 00:09:33,090 --> 00:09:37,060 Because obviously, like, that's a pretty powerful name. 153 00:09:37,060 --> 00:09:43,140 We're at a critical point in our development as a species here on planet earth. 154 00:09:43,140 --> 00:09:47,720 I think we've got a civilization that has outgrown the planet. 155 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:54,050 And we see a lot of symptoms of that with the way that our civilization's affecting 156 00:09:54,050 --> 00:09:57,780 the climate, the way that we're depleting resources. 157 00:09:57,780 --> 00:10:02,720 And so in order for our civilization to keep moving forward, doing ever bigger and greater 158 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:08,720 things, we need to stop relying on one planet for all of civilization's resources. 159 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:14,250 I think it's time that we start putting the machinery of civilization off the planet and 160 00:10:14,250 --> 00:10:19,560 allow biology to have more living space here on this world. 161 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:20,560 And we can do that. 162 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:26,130 We know there are ways to start moving the machinery on industry off the world, and yet 163 00:10:26,130 --> 00:10:31,490 support civilization here on the Earth, as well as doing greater things in space. 164 00:10:31,490 --> 00:10:34,860 So, you talk about, we've depleted the Earth's resources. 165 00:10:34,860 --> 00:10:40,950 Now, are we talking, like, we're in a doomsday scenario here, or do we have time? 166 00:10:40,950 --> 00:10:45,480 I do not believe we've actually depleted the resources on the Earth. 167 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:53,080 What I'm talking about is, we've used up the most easily accessible resources. 168 00:10:53,080 --> 00:11:01,730 It takes ever more energy to access and process the lower-grade resources that are not depleted. 169 00:11:01,730 --> 00:11:06,740 And because of that, our industrial footprint becomes ever greater. 170 00:11:06,740 --> 00:11:12,420 We need to process more energy, process more raw materials in order to produce the same 171 00:11:12,420 --> 00:11:13,420 outcome. 172 00:11:13,420 --> 00:11:19,690 And we also still need to make sure the whole world has a good economy, and access to healthcare 173 00:11:19,690 --> 00:11:24,940 and education, and so we're not done industrializing yet all over the world. 174 00:11:24,940 --> 00:11:30,100 What I'm talking about is reducing the industrial footprint on the Earth by putting the machinery 175 00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:31,410 off the planet. 176 00:11:31,410 --> 00:11:32,480 Okay. 177 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,820 The total resources have never left this world. 178 00:11:35,820 --> 00:11:37,070 They're still all here. 179 00:11:37,070 --> 00:11:42,990 And it's just a matter of energy to process everything, and the efficiency of that processing 180 00:11:42,990 --> 00:11:47,580 is getting less as we've used up a lot of the higher-grade ore bodies. 181 00:11:47,580 --> 00:11:53,700 So, you're proposing this idea of going somewhere like the moon or Mars and bringing resources 182 00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:54,880 back here? 183 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,589 Well, it's a decades-long program, I think. 184 00:11:58,589 --> 00:12:05,850 But the real goal would be to eventually have power systems that are off the planet beaming 185 00:12:05,850 --> 00:12:11,590 clean energy down to the surface so we can move the entire energy sector off the planet, 186 00:12:11,590 --> 00:12:15,520 and the entire industrial supply chain that supports the energy sector. 187 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,270 We can also move the majority of computing off the planet. 188 00:12:19,270 --> 00:12:25,160 Right now, the energy needs of computing is growing exponentially, and at the current 189 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,560 rate, according to the Semiconductor Research Corporation and the Semiconductor Industry 190 00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:36,020 Association, the computing here on planet Earth is gonna require the world's entire 191 00:12:36,020 --> 00:12:39,060 energy supply by the mid-2040s. 192 00:12:39,060 --> 00:12:42,840 [ Laughs ] Wait, wait, wait. 193 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:50,380 So, we're gonna need all the energy of Earth to run computer servers by the 2040s? 194 00:12:50,380 --> 00:12:51,380 Well -- 195 00:12:51,380 --> 00:12:52,380 An estimated figure. 196 00:12:52,380 --> 00:12:53,420 It won't actually happen. 197 00:12:53,420 --> 00:12:58,630 What will happen is, eventually there's gonna be increased cost for the energy to supply 198 00:12:58,630 --> 00:13:01,750 what computing requires or desires. 199 00:13:01,750 --> 00:13:02,750 I see. 200 00:13:02,750 --> 00:13:06,940 And so it's gonna result in a reduction in the amount of computing we can do, and that's 201 00:13:06,940 --> 00:13:09,710 gonna limit the benefits of computing. 202 00:13:09,710 --> 00:13:14,710 We won't be able to do as much supercomputing to solve for new drugs, you know, figuring 203 00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:16,080 out how proteins fold. 204 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:22,390 There's gonna be limitations to what we can do digitally unless we can move the computing 205 00:13:22,390 --> 00:13:24,710 off the planet. 206 00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:32,310 And there's a hope that we can improve the efficiency of computing, but even if we do, 207 00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:36,050 even if we make the most optimally efficient computer, that's only gonna delay the crunch 208 00:13:36,050 --> 00:13:37,220 another 10 years. 209 00:13:37,220 --> 00:13:38,220 Sure. 210 00:13:38,220 --> 00:13:44,399 So, by the mid-2050s at the latest, we're gonna have to either dramatically increase 211 00:13:44,399 --> 00:13:48,480 the energy supply of planet Earth or start to move computing off the planet. 212 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,060 So I'm not looking at bringing physical resources back from the Earth. 213 00:13:52,060 --> 00:13:57,750 I'm looking at ways that we can create infrastructure off the planet in order to support life here 214 00:13:57,750 --> 00:14:00,910 on the planet using massless transport up and down. 215 00:14:00,910 --> 00:14:04,610 So, kind of a part of this -- you mentioned a robot that never dies. 216 00:14:04,610 --> 00:14:11,891 Because you're not proposing that this robot is gonna solve all these world problems, but 217 00:14:11,891 --> 00:14:14,780 I'm curious to know, what does this robot that never dies do? 218 00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:15,780 Okay. 219 00:14:15,780 --> 00:14:18,310 So, it's actually a prospecting robot. 220 00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:25,240 So this is a spacecraft that could go out to any relatively low-gravity object outside 221 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:32,089 planet Earth -- it could be asteroids, it could be the moon, it could be Europa or Titan 222 00:14:32,089 --> 00:14:34,399 or even Pluto. 223 00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:40,180 Anywhere that's got low enough gravity and has access to volatiles like water at the 224 00:14:40,180 --> 00:14:41,180 surface. 225 00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:45,980 So, the technical definition of a volatile is a substance easily evaporated at normal 226 00:14:45,980 --> 00:14:46,980 temperatures. 227 00:14:46,980 --> 00:14:47,980 Mm-hmm. 228 00:14:47,980 --> 00:14:52,690 And so for our purposes, oftentimes it's thinking about cryogenic materials -- things that we 229 00:14:52,690 --> 00:14:57,300 have to cool drastically in order to be a liquid, but at room temperature, they are 230 00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:58,300 a gas. 231 00:14:58,300 --> 00:14:59,300 Right. 232 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:05,120 And this robotic spacecraft mines the surface to extract the volatiles, and it converts 233 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:15,180 it into steam, and then it can hop in the low-gravity environment using steam propulsion. 234 00:15:15,180 --> 00:15:20,210 So it never runs out of rocket fuel as long as it's got an energy supply, which could 235 00:15:20,210 --> 00:15:24,520 be solar energy in the inner solar system, or it would have to probably be a nuclear 236 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,830 decay source in the outer solar system. 237 00:15:26,830 --> 00:15:32,399 As long as it has energy and access to volatiles, it can just keep on exploring. 238 00:15:32,399 --> 00:15:33,399 Can it ever get stuck? 239 00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:37,870 Like, is there ever a chance where this thing, like, hops into a hole or lands on a rock 240 00:15:37,870 --> 00:15:38,970 funny and tips over? 241 00:15:38,970 --> 00:15:41,070 Like, how do we know this isn't gonna happen? 242 00:15:41,070 --> 00:15:43,190 Well, it definitely can happen. 243 00:15:43,190 --> 00:15:49,899 And when we devised this project, our thinking was that, "We will send swarms of these out 244 00:15:49,899 --> 00:15:50,899 into space.” 245 00:15:50,899 --> 00:15:58,300 They can be made very inexpensively using student teams, using off-the-shelf CubeSat 246 00:15:58,300 --> 00:16:01,730 hardware, 3-D printing the custom components. 247 00:16:01,730 --> 00:16:08,600 So this was designed to be built in massive quantities and sent out into space in swarms. 248 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:09,600 The idea -- 249 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:10,600 That sounds really creepy. 250 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,029 You know that, right? 251 00:16:12,029 --> 00:16:15,540 We will send swarms of these out into space. 252 00:16:15,540 --> 00:16:16,620 [ Laughs ] 253 00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:21,710 These giant, like, kilometer-long hopping robots. 254 00:16:21,710 --> 00:16:23,300 Like, that sounds really creepy. 255 00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:26,040 Hopping through the solar system like roaches. 256 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,649 [ Laughter ] Yeah, well, so, they would not be intelligent. 257 00:16:30,649 --> 00:16:31,959 They could not take over. 258 00:16:31,959 --> 00:16:32,959 Okay. 259 00:16:32,959 --> 00:16:33,959 Good. 260 00:16:33,959 --> 00:16:34,959 Whew! 261 00:16:34,959 --> 00:16:35,959 Yeah. 262 00:16:35,959 --> 00:16:38,830 They would -- The idea is that, some of them are gonna land on asteroids that have water, 263 00:16:38,830 --> 00:16:42,440 and they're gonna refuel, and then they're gonna study that asteroid and send data back, 264 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,200 and then they'll hop to another one. 265 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,830 But other ones are gonna hop onto an asteroid that doesn't have water, and they get stuck. 266 00:16:48,830 --> 00:16:49,830 Interesting. 267 00:16:49,830 --> 00:16:50,830 So that's the end of their mission. 268 00:16:50,830 --> 00:16:54,510 So, over time, they're gonna end up stuck on asteroids. 269 00:16:54,510 --> 00:16:55,510 And that's fine. 270 00:16:55,510 --> 00:16:59,029 They'll still provide data about the dynamics of that asteroid as they radio back their 271 00:16:59,029 --> 00:17:04,520 location, but eventually, over time, the swarm will be thinned down. 272 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:05,520 Okay. 273 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,510 And when you say a swarm, kind of give me a frame of reference. 274 00:17:08,510 --> 00:17:12,209 Are we talking, like, a dozen, 100, 1,000? 275 00:17:12,209 --> 00:17:13,269 What's the number look like? 276 00:17:13,269 --> 00:17:20,709 It could be thousands, because these are built with off-the-shelf hardware that's designed 277 00:17:20,709 --> 00:17:21,709 for CubeSat. 278 00:17:21,709 --> 00:17:26,869 So they can be very inexpensive, and they can be built by student teams as projects. 279 00:17:26,869 --> 00:17:32,139 They could be built even by community groups, people who want to participate in space. 280 00:17:32,139 --> 00:17:39,639 You could have a Boy Scout group build a satellite as one of their projects, and then it could 281 00:17:39,639 --> 00:17:45,749 go into space and participate as part of the swarm of spacecraft exploring the asteroid 282 00:17:45,749 --> 00:17:46,789 belt. 283 00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:54,539 Right now, we're sending on average one spacecraft to a small solar system body every two years. 284 00:17:54,539 --> 00:18:00,059 There are approximately 10 billion small solar system bodies. 285 00:18:00,059 --> 00:18:06,769 At the rate we're going, we will never explore them all until the end of the universe. 286 00:18:06,769 --> 00:18:11,779 But this would be a way to change that game, to send out large numbers of spacecraft and 287 00:18:11,779 --> 00:18:17,539 visit many, many, many of these small objects throughout this gigantic asteroid belt, and 288 00:18:17,539 --> 00:18:19,759 then out into the Kuiper Belt. 289 00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:26,570 So, it'll give us a chance to really take survey of this home that we live in. 290 00:18:26,570 --> 00:18:32,110 So, how big of a robot are we talking about here? 291 00:18:32,110 --> 00:18:34,070 It's the size of a microwave oven. 292 00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:35,070 Okay. 293 00:18:35,070 --> 00:18:38,779 In terms of CubeSats, it would be 27U. 294 00:18:38,779 --> 00:18:42,049 That's 27 units, so it's 3x3x3 CubeSats. 295 00:18:42,049 --> 00:18:49,290 So, for those not familiar, the CubeSat is a very growing trend of spacefaring satellites, 296 00:18:49,290 --> 00:18:51,950 and they measure, what, 10 centimeters cubed? 297 00:18:51,950 --> 00:18:52,950 That's right. 298 00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:53,950 10 centimeters on a side. 299 00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:54,950 Okay. 300 00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:59,700 And so the WINE was just -- and, by the way, the CubeSats are modular, so they're made 301 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:04,820 to be hooked together, and so you can have -- quite often, you'll see CubeSats that are 302 00:19:04,820 --> 00:19:07,279 3U, and so those would be 10x10x30. 303 00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:09,499 It's just three cubes hooked together. 304 00:19:09,499 --> 00:19:13,759 You often see them as 1x2x3, so that's a 6U. 305 00:19:13,759 --> 00:19:14,759 Okay. 306 00:19:14,759 --> 00:19:16,440 So what we're talking about is 27U. 307 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:22,230 It's just 27 CubeSat-sized boxes hooked together, three of them on a side. 308 00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:27,889 So, we've got robots exploring around our solar system, and this would be on the much 309 00:19:27,889 --> 00:19:28,889 smaller side. 310 00:19:28,889 --> 00:19:30,269 Is that a fair assessment? 311 00:19:30,269 --> 00:19:31,269 Yeah. 312 00:19:31,269 --> 00:19:34,090 This is definitely a small spacecraft. 313 00:19:34,090 --> 00:19:40,789 And part of the idea of the WINE project was to make use of the growing availability of 314 00:19:40,789 --> 00:19:42,820 CubeSat components. 315 00:19:42,820 --> 00:19:49,220 So we can use CubeSat reaction wheels, CubeSat communication systems, CubeSat power systems 316 00:19:49,220 --> 00:19:51,460 and computers. 317 00:19:51,460 --> 00:19:54,989 However, we are not a CubeSat. 318 00:19:54,989 --> 00:20:02,149 So we are using CubeSat components, and we're using CubeSat dimensions, but we don't actually 319 00:20:02,149 --> 00:20:08,190 have 27 modular units hooked together, because the propellent tanks don't fit in just one 320 00:20:08,190 --> 00:20:09,190 unit. 321 00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:10,190 Sure. 322 00:20:10,190 --> 00:20:12,009 It's got legs attached to the side. 323 00:20:12,009 --> 00:20:14,470 It's got a nozzle sticking out the bottom. 324 00:20:14,470 --> 00:20:18,659 So it's not really fitting -- entirely fitting the CubeSat philosophy. 325 00:20:18,659 --> 00:20:23,130 But it is leveraging CubeSat philosophy to a degree. 326 00:20:23,130 --> 00:20:29,010 So, give me kind of a feeling -- We talked about kind of the energy that it has to do 327 00:20:29,010 --> 00:20:30,010 propulsion. 328 00:20:30,010 --> 00:20:31,179 We've talked about its size. 329 00:20:31,179 --> 00:20:36,169 So, if we put this thing on Earth and you've got it working at full power, how far can 330 00:20:36,169 --> 00:20:37,289 this thing hop? 331 00:20:37,289 --> 00:20:42,359 Well, here on Earth's gravity and in Earth's atmosphere, it's not gonna perform very well. 332 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:47,509 For one thing, the steam propulsion ha a great advantage in space, because as you're blowing 333 00:20:47,509 --> 00:20:54,739 steam out the rocket nozzle, there's a huge pressure difference from inside the upstream 334 00:20:54,739 --> 00:20:58,629 in the nozzle to outside the nozzle. 335 00:20:58,629 --> 00:21:04,629 And that pressure different is enough that it causes the steam to go supersonic as it 336 00:21:04,629 --> 00:21:06,190 flows down the nozzle. 337 00:21:06,190 --> 00:21:11,359 But if you try to operate that inside of a dense atmosphere, like on the Earth, you may 338 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,940 not be below the critical pressure on the outside. 339 00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:15,940 Okay. 340 00:21:15,940 --> 00:21:17,499 And so you may not get supersonic flow. 341 00:21:17,499 --> 00:21:24,889 So it's gonna dramatically reduce the ability of the propulsion system to create thrust. 342 00:21:24,889 --> 00:21:26,760 The second problem is the high gravity. 343 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:27,760 Sure. 344 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,319 So, here on the Earth, I'm not sure you're gonna get a very good hop at all. 345 00:21:31,319 --> 00:21:32,319 [ Chuckles ] 346 00:21:32,319 --> 00:21:37,419 In a thin atmosphere, like on Mars, it would definitely work, and you could hop hundreds 347 00:21:37,419 --> 00:21:38,639 of meters. 348 00:21:38,639 --> 00:21:39,850 A single hop? 349 00:21:39,850 --> 00:21:40,850 Yeah. 350 00:21:40,850 --> 00:21:41,850 Hundreds of meters? 351 00:21:41,850 --> 00:21:42,850 Yeah. 352 00:21:42,850 --> 00:21:43,850 That's true. 353 00:21:43,850 --> 00:21:44,850 That's correct. 354 00:21:44,850 --> 00:21:45,850 That's awesome. 355 00:21:45,850 --> 00:21:46,850 [ Laughs ] 356 00:21:46,850 --> 00:21:50,840 Now, the metric I was using was to try to make it hop at least one kilometer per hop, 357 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:57,249 and also to be able to heat the fuel, the steam, in 10 days or less. 358 00:21:57,249 --> 00:22:02,249 So, you mine the water, and then you spend some time heating it. 359 00:22:02,249 --> 00:22:05,519 You're using solar power if you're in the inner solar system. 360 00:22:05,519 --> 00:22:06,519 Okay. 361 00:22:06,519 --> 00:22:11,779 So, over a 10-day period of time, you're trickling in this solar energy and just building up 362 00:22:11,779 --> 00:22:15,289 temperature and pressure inside your water tank. 363 00:22:15,289 --> 00:22:22,889 And my objective was to make sure the spacecraft could get to hopping temperature within 10 364 00:22:22,889 --> 00:22:23,889 days. 365 00:22:23,889 --> 00:22:24,889 Okay. 366 00:22:24,889 --> 00:22:29,049 So, you could have a spacecraft -- you could allow it to take longer than 10 days if you 367 00:22:29,049 --> 00:22:31,870 wanted to, but you have to draw the line somewhere... 368 00:22:31,870 --> 00:22:32,870 Sure. 369 00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:34,119 ...for it to be a practical system. 370 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,340 Makes sense. 371 00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:42,399 So, if you could heat it up in 10 days with a sufficiently small set of solar arrays as 372 00:22:42,399 --> 00:22:47,799 your power source, then it becomes a very viable spacecraft, according to our reckoning. 373 00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:53,600 And, so, when we talk about that, obviously you have to not only account for the lift-off, 374 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,239 so to speak, the hopping portion, but the touchdown portion. 375 00:22:57,239 --> 00:23:03,109 Do you save some of the steam to kind of slow your descent, or are the legs built so that 376 00:23:03,109 --> 00:23:04,789 they can withstand that force? 377 00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:08,370 We were planning to do soft landings using the steam propulsion. 378 00:23:08,370 --> 00:23:13,119 So, when I say it hops a kilometer or more, that means you're using about half of the 379 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,570 steam for lift-off, you're using a little bit of the steam for attitude control, using 380 00:23:17,570 --> 00:23:18,969 the tiny thrusters. 381 00:23:18,969 --> 00:23:19,969 [ Chuckles ] 382 00:23:19,969 --> 00:23:24,070 And so you're controlling the spacecraft using the same steam, and then it uses the other 383 00:23:24,070 --> 00:23:27,950 half of the steam to set down softly at its landing site. 384 00:23:27,950 --> 00:23:28,950 Cool. 385 00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:29,950 That's amazing. 386 00:23:29,950 --> 00:23:32,140 And you mentioned harvesting water. 387 00:23:32,140 --> 00:23:35,489 And I'm assuming we're not talking about, like, streams of water, here. 388 00:23:35,489 --> 00:23:37,269 We're talking about frozen water. 389 00:23:37,269 --> 00:23:38,269 Is that correct? 390 00:23:38,269 --> 00:23:39,269 Yeah. 391 00:23:39,269 --> 00:23:42,259 Well, it really depends where you are, what kind of a body you're on. 392 00:23:42,259 --> 00:23:45,659 So if you're on Europa, the whole surface is ice. 393 00:23:45,659 --> 00:23:46,659 Okay. 394 00:23:46,659 --> 00:23:49,049 And is probably mixed-composition ice. 395 00:23:49,049 --> 00:23:52,980 It can be water, carbon dioxide, it can have all kinds of organics. 396 00:23:52,980 --> 00:23:55,029 And for this spacecraft, it really doesn't matter. 397 00:23:55,029 --> 00:24:00,379 Whatever it gets, it can convert all of that to high-pressure vapor, and then shoot it 398 00:24:00,379 --> 00:24:02,110 out the nozzle and get propulsion. 399 00:24:02,110 --> 00:24:05,200 So we don't really care too much what the composition is. 400 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,309 That's one of the nice things about this very simple system. 401 00:24:08,309 --> 00:24:13,929 If you're on the moon, then it's gonna be ice mixed with dirt, mixed with mineral grains. 402 00:24:13,929 --> 00:24:14,929 Sure. 403 00:24:14,929 --> 00:24:17,619 And so the system has two coring tubes. 404 00:24:17,619 --> 00:24:22,470 It drives them down into the soil, and then it heats the coring tubes. 405 00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:28,889 So the vapor will travel through the soil, up the coring tube, into a pipe, and into 406 00:24:28,889 --> 00:24:32,029 the tank where it gets frozen. 407 00:24:32,029 --> 00:24:35,710 Some of the vapor will leak out the bottom of the coring tube -- that's okay. 408 00:24:35,710 --> 00:24:37,749 We don't have to collect all of it. 409 00:24:37,749 --> 00:24:40,899 But you extract the coring tubes. 410 00:24:40,899 --> 00:24:45,779 The spacecraft has legs, so it then walks a few centimeters, and it repeats the process. 411 00:24:45,779 --> 00:24:52,600 And it keeps doing one set of coring-tube extraction operations after another until 412 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,470 the tank is full of water. 413 00:24:55,470 --> 00:25:01,320 Every time, it'll shove that tube down in the icy regolith, it'll get some of the vapor 414 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,909 out, and it will pull the tube back out again. 415 00:25:03,909 --> 00:25:08,490 So, you can actually get the ice out of the dirt. 416 00:25:08,490 --> 00:25:15,059 On the other hand, a third example, if you're on a carbonaceous asteroid, let's say you're 417 00:25:15,059 --> 00:25:16,059 -- 418 00:25:16,059 --> 00:25:17,059 Carbonaceous. 419 00:25:17,059 --> 00:25:18,059 That's an awesome word. 420 00:25:18,059 --> 00:25:19,059 [ Laughs ] 421 00:25:19,059 --> 00:25:21,850 [ Chuckles ] So, carbonaceous, those are the asteroids that have a lot of clay in them. 422 00:25:21,850 --> 00:25:22,850 Okay. 423 00:25:22,850 --> 00:25:28,090 So Ceres, the largest asteroid, is a carbonaceous asteroid, for one example. 424 00:25:28,090 --> 00:25:32,549 So, if you're on a carbonaceous asteroid, there is no ice. 425 00:25:32,549 --> 00:25:38,710 Instead, the water is actually locked into the mineral structure of the clay itself. 426 00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:41,279 In that case, you can still get the water out. 427 00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:47,460 You drive the coring tube down into the soil, you heat the soil so much that the hydroxyl 428 00:25:47,460 --> 00:25:52,919 that's in the clay starts to break loose, and it comes out in the form of water. 429 00:25:52,919 --> 00:25:54,059 So you still can -- 430 00:25:54,059 --> 00:25:55,059 Crazy. 431 00:25:55,059 --> 00:25:58,369 ...get water, even on a bone-dry asteroid. 432 00:25:58,369 --> 00:25:59,859 Man. 433 00:25:59,859 --> 00:26:01,659 This is, like, blowing my mind, Phil. 434 00:26:01,659 --> 00:26:02,739 This is awesome. 435 00:26:02,739 --> 00:26:10,749 So, obviously if you're harvesting in frozen deposits of water or water mixed into regolith, 436 00:26:10,749 --> 00:26:13,279 we're in fairly cold environments. 437 00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:17,729 Is this thing -- is this robot able to survive in these really, like, harsh environments? 438 00:26:17,729 --> 00:26:18,940 Sure. 439 00:26:18,940 --> 00:26:22,889 That was part of the calculation -- how much energy it needs to stay warm. 440 00:26:22,889 --> 00:26:25,720 And there's a lot of different ways to do it. 441 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,840 One way is, you simply try to stay in a benign environment. 442 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,869 So, there are places in the solar system where it's not so cold, and you design it to handle 443 00:26:35,869 --> 00:26:38,609 the average temperature. 444 00:26:38,609 --> 00:26:43,039 But if you want to go into a really, really cold place like Pluto, then you're gonna have 445 00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:45,799 to have some warmth on the spacecraft. 446 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:54,960 And the way that we do that in the space program is, we use RHUs -- radioisotopic heater units. 447 00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:01,249 Each RHU is the size of a dime, and you just simply glue them onto your spacecraft at various 448 00:27:01,249 --> 00:27:02,249 locations. 449 00:27:02,249 --> 00:27:08,220 They contain a tiny amount of a radioactive material, and over time, that material decays 450 00:27:08,220 --> 00:27:11,489 and creates warmth that goes into your spacecraft. 451 00:27:11,489 --> 00:27:17,190 [ Chuckles ] So you're using radioactive dimes to heat a spacecraft to keep it from freezing. 452 00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:19,359 Yeah, that's actually standard practice. 453 00:27:21,940 --> 00:27:20,359 [ Laughs ] 454 00:27:21,940 --> 00:27:23,080 But, yeah. 455 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,230 So, to go to these colder areas, you would have to do something to keep them warm in 456 00:27:27,230 --> 00:27:29,690 order to keep the electronics functional. 457 00:27:29,690 --> 00:27:35,820 And we talked about the way this thing gets around, and how it kind of gathers its propulsive 458 00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:36,820 materials. 459 00:27:36,820 --> 00:27:40,849 But I'm assuming that this robot is for more than just hopping around. 460 00:27:40,849 --> 00:27:45,129 It's got to have some kind of a function that's scientifically beneficial. 461 00:27:45,129 --> 00:27:46,129 That's right. 462 00:27:46,129 --> 00:27:47,129 It would carry a payload. 463 00:27:47,129 --> 00:27:52,799 And one of the nice things about it is that the spacecraft is already mining the volatiles. 464 00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:57,720 So if you want to study the volatiles, you've already got access to them. 465 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,229 So you could put some instruments on your spacecraft, and you could study the chemistry 466 00:28:01,229 --> 00:28:07,119 of the volatiles, you could study what temperatures the volatiles are released from the soil, 467 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:13,590 and that gives you information about the clay minerals and the physical state of the ice 468 00:28:13,590 --> 00:28:15,860 in the soil. 469 00:28:15,860 --> 00:28:18,989 You also could carry a camera. 470 00:28:18,989 --> 00:28:22,710 Obviously you will have a camera, because you need visual awareness as you're hopping 471 00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:24,090 and landing. 472 00:28:24,090 --> 00:28:25,130 Sure. 473 00:28:25,130 --> 00:28:30,619 So you'll get visual imagery of the body that you're exploring, but there's also accommodation 474 00:28:30,619 --> 00:28:31,639 for other payloads. 475 00:28:31,639 --> 00:28:39,850 So you could take magnetometers, or you could take spectrometers or anything else to study 476 00:28:39,850 --> 00:28:45,100 the mineralogy or the planetary environment wherever you go. 477 00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:47,929 What are some of the major challenges that lie ahead for you all? 478 00:28:47,929 --> 00:28:52,480 Obviously the goal here is that this will be operational in exploring somewhere in our 479 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:57,019 solar system, but what are the big speed bumps to getting there? 480 00:28:57,019 --> 00:28:58,019 Yeah. 481 00:28:58,019 --> 00:28:59,970 It's a matter of doing the engineering. 482 00:28:59,970 --> 00:29:03,090 So, NASA has a way of grading technology. 483 00:29:03,090 --> 00:29:04,090 Okay. 484 00:29:04,090 --> 00:29:06,190 It's called the Technology Readiness Level scale. 485 00:29:06,190 --> 00:29:07,690 Did I say that right? 486 00:29:07,690 --> 00:29:08,759 That sounds right, yeah. 487 00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:09,860 Technology Readiness Level. 488 00:29:09,860 --> 00:29:10,860 Yeah. 489 00:29:10,860 --> 00:29:11,860 [ Chuckles ] 490 00:29:11,860 --> 00:29:13,399 So, it goes from one through nine. 491 00:29:13,399 --> 00:29:15,879 One means you've discovered something in physics. 492 00:29:15,879 --> 00:29:16,879 Okay. 493 00:29:16,879 --> 00:29:20,440 Two means you've come up with a way to use it in technology. 494 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,070 And then it goes all the way up to nine, which means you are now flying it in space. 495 00:29:24,070 --> 00:29:25,070 Okay. 496 00:29:25,070 --> 00:29:30,179 So, we are at TRL 4, or partial TRL 5. 497 00:29:30,179 --> 00:29:31,179 Okay. 498 00:29:31,179 --> 00:29:36,940 Because we've built a partial prototype, and we have tested it in a terrestrial environment 499 00:29:36,940 --> 00:29:40,849 using a gravity offloader, but using realistic regolith and vacuums. 500 00:29:40,849 --> 00:29:46,059 So it was partially the realistic environment and a partial prototype. 501 00:29:46,059 --> 00:29:51,109 So, in order to get a full TRL 5, we would need the full prototype with all the spacecraft 502 00:29:51,109 --> 00:29:52,379 systems, I think. 503 00:29:52,379 --> 00:29:53,509 Okay. 504 00:29:53,509 --> 00:29:58,849 And then in a full, relevant environment for the testing -- so maybe some testing in space, 505 00:29:58,849 --> 00:30:01,129 actually -- to get TRL 6. 506 00:30:01,129 --> 00:30:05,970 And once you're at TRL 6, that's the point where you can sell it to your customer. 507 00:30:05,970 --> 00:30:12,129 Then the customer's job is to build the actual flight units to go seven, eight, and nine. 508 00:30:12,129 --> 00:30:15,009 And for you, as you kind of look towards the future, obviously it sounds like a customer 509 00:30:15,009 --> 00:30:17,499 gets involved, so they kind of have some say in this. 510 00:30:17,499 --> 00:30:22,749 But do you have to go further than the moon to be able to test this, or is the moon an 511 00:30:22,749 --> 00:30:26,120 acceptable testing ground for you guys? 512 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,489 Well, to get TRL 6, you don't actually have to go to space. 513 00:30:30,489 --> 00:30:31,620 You can simulate it. 514 00:30:31,620 --> 00:30:35,899 But you have to put together the full set of relevant space conditions. 515 00:30:35,899 --> 00:30:36,899 Okay. 516 00:30:36,899 --> 00:30:38,630 So, we have tested in vacuum. 517 00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:42,019 We used a gravity offloader. 518 00:30:42,019 --> 00:30:47,070 But we would probably want to test the mining process itself, the coring, in a reduced-gravity 519 00:30:47,070 --> 00:30:51,889 flight, and we would probably also need to have the right thermal environment on the 520 00:30:51,889 --> 00:30:52,889 spacecraft. 521 00:30:52,889 --> 00:30:57,320 So not just a vacuum chamber, but a thermal vacuum chamber for some of these tests. 522 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,539 Once we've done all that, we could probably claim TRL 6. 523 00:31:01,539 --> 00:31:02,669 Cool. 524 00:31:02,669 --> 00:31:07,679 Any words of advice that you would give to aspiring planetary-research scientists? 525 00:31:07,679 --> 00:31:14,080 Or possibly something that you might say to inspire people to be planetary-research scientists? 526 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,320 Well, I'm having the time of my life. 527 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:17,619 This is exciting. 528 00:31:17,619 --> 00:31:19,029 It's fun. 529 00:31:19,029 --> 00:31:20,600 I do something different every day. 530 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,419 I'm working on about five or six different projects at all times. 531 00:31:24,419 --> 00:31:28,809 So there's a lot of variety, and you get to make everything up as you go along. 532 00:31:28,809 --> 00:31:29,809 So if you like -- 533 00:31:29,809 --> 00:31:30,809 [ Laughs ] 534 00:31:30,809 --> 00:31:34,029 There's no book that tells you what to do next. 535 00:31:34,029 --> 00:31:36,799 What we're doing is, we're creating an off-world economy. 536 00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:40,299 So, I call myself an applied planetary scientist. 537 00:31:40,299 --> 00:31:41,299 Okay. 538 00:31:41,299 --> 00:31:43,869 Or I'm doing economic planetary science. 539 00:31:43,869 --> 00:31:49,859 Because we're working on the technologies to do economic activities off the Earth. 540 00:31:49,859 --> 00:31:55,259 This is not an established field, and so we're making it all up as we go along. 541 00:31:55,259 --> 00:31:58,190 This is also what the Swamp Works does at the Kennedy Space Center. 542 00:31:58,190 --> 00:32:02,830 The Swamp Works, in my opinion, is the premier laboratory for space mining and space-resource 543 00:32:02,830 --> 00:32:05,200 utilization in the world. 544 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:11,190 And some of the best technologists in the world are here in NASA doing this work. 545 00:32:11,190 --> 00:32:15,600 When I was at NASA as part of the Swamp Works, we were making it up as we go along. 546 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,850 We're trying to figure out -- we're inventing technologies. 547 00:32:18,850 --> 00:32:20,610 We're inventing processes. 548 00:32:20,610 --> 00:32:25,730 We're inventing strategies and entire space architectures. 549 00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:30,469 And then we convince people to give us the money to do it, and then we get to have fun, 550 00:32:30,469 --> 00:32:36,840 and we go work on volcanoes, we fly in reduced-gravity airplanes, and pretty much anything you want 551 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:37,840 to do. 552 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,169 We're working with real rockets and with robots. 553 00:32:42,169 --> 00:32:47,299 You know, so, robots, rockets, and we're doing things to help humanity, so it's kind of the 554 00:32:47,299 --> 00:32:48,409 best of everything. 555 00:32:48,409 --> 00:32:49,409 All right. 556 00:32:49,409 --> 00:32:50,409 I'm ready to go. 557 00:32:50,409 --> 00:32:51,409 Sign me up. 558 00:32:51,409 --> 00:32:52,409 I'm in. 559 00:32:52,409 --> 00:32:53,409 All right. 560 00:32:53,409 --> 00:32:54,409 [ Chuckles ] So, there you go. 561 00:32:54,409 --> 00:33:00,129 So, as we look towards colonizing the moon or Mars or other heavenly bodies, Phil Metzger 562 00:33:00,129 --> 00:33:04,849 is a brilliant man who has lots of data to share, and obviously lots of energy to do 563 00:33:04,849 --> 00:33:05,849 so. 564 00:33:05,849 --> 00:33:07,100 So thank you for being with me today. 565 00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:10,139 Thank you, Josh. 566 00:33:10,139 --> 00:33:13,090 As promised, we wanted to answer a question from a listener. 567 00:33:13,090 --> 00:33:17,950 Cassashine asks, “What is the most exciting thing to look forward to regarding SpaceX 568 00:33:17,950 --> 00:33:22,190 and private companies also being about to travel to outer space?” 569 00:33:22,190 --> 00:33:26,749 So you may or may not know, but part of NASA’s mission is to expand commercial space. 570 00:33:26,749 --> 00:33:31,779 So for any company that gets into that game of taking humans into space that’s a huge 571 00:33:31,779 --> 00:33:32,909 win for NASA. 572 00:33:32,909 --> 00:33:36,779 And we really see that as a benefit for all mankind because the more companies that enter 573 00:33:36,779 --> 00:33:41,409 the field, the more competition there is and so that actually will drive costs down and 574 00:33:41,409 --> 00:33:43,870 make commercial space more accessible for most people. 575 00:33:43,870 --> 00:33:49,399 So, over time, the cost of flying into space will take a huge plummet and that’s awesome 576 00:33:49,399 --> 00:33:53,269 because then everyone will get a chance to hopefully some day vacation in space, visit 577 00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:55,049 the moon or even further than that. 578 00:33:55,049 --> 00:33:58,419 So we’re excited for all these commercial companies and a growing field. 579 00:33:58,419 --> 00:33:59,419 [Sound Effect] 580 00:33:59,419 --> 00:34:03,100 Mike, we had a chance to sit down with Dr. Phil Metzger and talk about the WINE project. 581 00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:10,109 Is this an exceptional project, or is this par for the course when it comes to SBIR and 582 00:34:10,109 --> 00:34:11,109 STTR? 583 00:34:11,109 --> 00:34:16,599 It's a great question, because the SBIR Program has been responsible for bringing forward 584 00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:20,669 a lot of really amazing companies and teams doing remarkable projects. 585 00:34:20,669 --> 00:34:26,280 So, we're lucky to say that, yeah, there are quite a few like this WINE project that really 586 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:27,750 knock it out of the park. 587 00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:32,129 And it's hats off to the small businesses that put all the effort in for this program, 588 00:34:32,129 --> 00:34:33,129 that's for sure. 589 00:34:33,129 --> 00:34:39,960 So, you mentioned that we're looking for research projects that we could see some commercial 590 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,250 application. 591 00:34:41,250 --> 00:34:42,270 Is that a priority for us? 592 00:34:42,270 --> 00:34:49,600 Are we really helping to kind of kick-start these commercial deliverables or products 593 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,369 or however you want to describe it? 594 00:34:51,369 --> 00:34:57,279 We try in general to make sure that the company's participation in the SBIR Program is something 595 00:34:57,279 --> 00:35:00,950 that's gonna benefit them in the commercial world as well as the government world. 596 00:35:00,950 --> 00:35:06,800 And there's a couple different ways how that happens and why we would want it to happen. 597 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,559 It helps in the commercial world in the sense that, we're interested in making sure that 598 00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:17,660 these small businesses are functional and available to us for future use as suppliers. 599 00:35:19,660 --> 00:35:18,660 Interesting. 600 00:35:19,660 --> 00:35:23,740 So, a good way of saying it for the SBIR Program -- in fact, this kind of leans towards it. 601 00:35:23,740 --> 00:35:28,200 A good way of looking at the SBIR Program is, for NASA, we're trying to build pockets 602 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,329 of the industry that we know we're gonna need in the near future. 603 00:35:31,329 --> 00:35:32,329 Huh. 604 00:35:32,329 --> 00:35:39,039 So, while we know that there's suppliers of -- or prime contractors and established suppliers 605 00:35:39,039 --> 00:35:42,580 of different types of technology, if we can see that, a few years down the road, we're 606 00:35:42,580 --> 00:35:47,450 gonna need some new category or class of sensors or what have you, it's worth it for us to 607 00:35:47,450 --> 00:35:52,890 put some seed money out through the SBIR program, work with small businesses, and collaboratively 608 00:35:52,890 --> 00:35:56,329 try to develop that little niche in the industry and see if we can grow it. 609 00:35:56,329 --> 00:35:58,720 Can you talk about kind of the process? 610 00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:03,789 So, whether it be for WINE or for any SBIR -- I would assume the process is similar -- what 611 00:36:03,789 --> 00:36:07,460 do they go through from a NASA perspective to develop this technology and get it ready 612 00:36:07,460 --> 00:36:08,460 for flight? 613 00:36:08,460 --> 00:36:09,460 Sure. 614 00:36:09,460 --> 00:36:14,470 The NASA SBIR process is actually something that has a couple different phases. 615 00:36:14,470 --> 00:36:22,109 The first part is Phase I, where we send out the solicitation to the general public and 616 00:36:22,109 --> 00:36:23,109 to industry. 617 00:36:23,109 --> 00:36:26,400 And any company or any person who's starting a company, even, can apply. 618 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:33,580 And they're applying for a Phase I award, which is $125,000 for 6 months' or 13 months' 619 00:36:33,580 --> 00:36:37,880 worth of work, depending on whether it's the SBIR Program or STTR Program. 620 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:43,380 But that Phase I, what that's basically doing is, that is -- what NASA's asking for, I should 621 00:36:43,380 --> 00:36:47,270 say, is something of a technology-development plan. 622 00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:48,770 You think you have an idea. 623 00:36:48,770 --> 00:36:54,039 How would you develop the idea if you had funds, and what kind of preliminary work can 624 00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:59,980 you do up front to validate or better plan for it or even disprove the concept? 625 00:36:59,980 --> 00:37:02,670 That's kind of what the Phase I work does. 626 00:37:02,670 --> 00:37:08,029 And then what happens is, at the end of the Phase I period, the company submits a final 627 00:37:08,029 --> 00:37:11,029 report, and they're also invited to apply for Phase II. 628 00:37:11,029 --> 00:37:14,710 So, you don't get to Phase II unless you've been awarded a Phase I. 629 00:37:14,710 --> 00:37:15,710 Okay. 630 00:37:15,710 --> 00:37:17,240 And the Phase II is sort of follow-on work. 631 00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:19,529 So that's the second stage of the work. 632 00:37:19,529 --> 00:37:22,779 The nice thing about Phase II is, it's a bit more time. 633 00:37:22,779 --> 00:37:26,260 It's two years' worth of duration, and it's also $750,000. 634 00:37:26,260 --> 00:37:31,559 So, between those two, you're close to $1 million worth of funding that NASA has provided 635 00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:35,230 to the small business to pursue that particular technology. 636 00:37:35,230 --> 00:37:41,510 So, the World Is Not Enough project, the WINE project, has proceeded through Phase II, and 637 00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:44,900 has gotten to where they've been able to develop hardware. 638 00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:47,619 And that's the exciting part about the Phase II project. 639 00:37:47,619 --> 00:37:52,080 By the end of Phase II, NASA is generally expecting to see some sort of hardware that 640 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,710 will be delivered or a software prototype, something like that. 641 00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:57,430 Some sort of proof of the technology. 642 00:37:57,430 --> 00:38:02,650 And between those different phases, it pretty systematically helps bring the companies up 643 00:38:02,650 --> 00:38:06,980 -- in terms of developing their technology, up through the Technology Readiness Levels. 644 00:38:06,980 --> 00:38:12,450 Mike, the STTR Program being different, and that it incorporates universities -- and I 645 00:38:12,450 --> 00:38:17,289 think there's part of me that's continuously impressed by the fact that we do have university 646 00:38:17,289 --> 00:38:20,839 students really contributing to NASA missions. 647 00:38:20,839 --> 00:38:23,380 Can you talk about the value of those students? 648 00:38:23,380 --> 00:38:27,750 Like, is it more learning for them, or is it more value for us? 649 00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:32,089 The approach that has really worked well in the past, and I think is the reason why the 650 00:38:32,089 --> 00:38:37,280 STTR Program is structured the way it is, is that not only do you need to find groups 651 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,500 of people who are capable of coming up with innovative solutions, but you also need to 652 00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:43,609 think of it more like a process. 653 00:38:43,609 --> 00:38:45,380 Where do these people come from? 654 00:38:45,380 --> 00:38:51,109 And if they're going to grow into big companies, how do you supply them with people who have 655 00:38:51,109 --> 00:38:52,319 familiarity in those fields? 656 00:38:52,319 --> 00:38:55,369 But also, you're not just growing companies. 657 00:38:55,369 --> 00:38:59,720 You're growing whole areas of thought and development, and a lot of times the academic 658 00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:03,010 world is critical for that. 659 00:39:03,010 --> 00:39:09,329 At NASA, we pay a lot of attention to technology ecosystems, as I would call it, where the 660 00:39:09,329 --> 00:39:13,490 different elements that are needed in a particular region in order to support technology development, 661 00:39:13,490 --> 00:39:19,720 it's very hard for a small business by itself to really be able to thrive in some of these 662 00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:21,940 demanding worlds if you don't have some kind of support. 663 00:39:21,940 --> 00:39:28,029 And a lot of times, the nearest university or research institute can be just the critical 664 00:39:28,029 --> 00:39:30,329 lifeline that a small business would need. 665 00:39:30,329 --> 00:39:31,920 And we want to try to encourage that. 666 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,250 That's part of why we have the STTR Program. 667 00:39:35,250 --> 00:39:41,210 We've found it to be extremely powerful for small businesses to make an effort to reach 668 00:39:41,210 --> 00:39:45,920 out and interact with the universities, particularly if they're doing technology development, because 669 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,400 it is the exchange of ideas that is pretty staggering. 670 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,319 And small businesses also don't realize that sometimes there are more opportunities than 671 00:39:54,319 --> 00:39:58,740 just our STTR Program that require a combined team. 672 00:39:58,740 --> 00:40:04,210 And it's a real vibrant part of the research part, and there's 673 00:40:04,210 --> 00:40:07,590 nothing but benefit to get if people can team up like that. 674 00:40:07,590 --> 00:40:08,590 All right. 675 00:40:08,590 --> 00:40:09,839 Mike, that's all the time we have for today. 676 00:40:09,839 --> 00:40:11,299 Thank you so much for being here. 677 00:40:11,299 --> 00:40:13,250 I am incredibly excited. 678 00:40:13,250 --> 00:40:16,990 Obviously an exciting time for SBIR as we look to return to the moon. 679 00:40:16,990 --> 00:40:18,769 Thanks for joining me. 680 00:40:18,769 --> 00:40:21,170 Thank you. 681 00:40:21,170 --> 00:40:24,589 I’m Joshua Santora, and that’s our show. 682 00:40:24,589 --> 00:40:26,369 Thanks for stoppin’ by the rocket ranch. 683 00:40:26,369 --> 00:40:30,240 And special thanks to our guests Mike Vinje and Dr. Phil Metzger. 684 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:36,490 To learn more about SBIR and STTR visit sbir.nasa.gov. 685 00:40:36,490 --> 00:40:41,920 To learn more about how NASA technology benefits life on earth, check out the 2019 NASA Spinoff 686 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,980 magazine, which is out now, at spinoff.nasa.gov. 687 00:40:46,980 --> 00:40:50,599 And to learn more about everything going on at the Kennedy Space Center, go to nasa.gov/kennedy. 688 00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:55,779 Check out NASA’s other podcasts to learn more about what’s happening at all of our 689 00:40:55,779 --> 00:40:59,049 centers at nasa.gov/podcasts. 690 00:40:59,049 --> 00:41:04,670 A special shout-out to our producer, John Sackman, our soundman Lorne Mathre, editor 691 00:41:04,670 --> 00:41:08,349 Michelle Stone, and our production manager, Leejay Lockhart.